Was there such a thing as a WWI recognition model? I have seen black on white profile shots but don't recall ever seeing anything similar to the WWII solid ID models.
Somewhere I recall seeing ship models from the WWI era.
I am still searching the web, but have not seen a solid model although there is some talk of them. Here is an interesting site on WWI modelling. http://www.wwi-models.org/
lou
Technically the Clemson class we built was the WW1 version Lou. Although I don't know if the Preston (DD 327) was built during the war.
After a lot of research on this subject the general conclusion was that paper ident wall posters were generally used,there would appear to have been a few attempts to make individual recognition type models but not commissioned by the war office in any way,now here is an idea ? why not imagine that there were indeed WW1 recognition models and produce something that is how we would make them if so commissioned ? a Gotha bomber perhaps in all sinister black ? a simple Sopwith Camel showing the salient features or what about a few profile types to experiment with,hung up they would look really good finished in black or grey finish,the struts could be simply made from skewers or flat lollipop sticks trimmed,or even flattened aluminium tube filed at the ends and pierced into the wood,it sounds fun to re-create something that could have been ? I may knock something up myself from scrap wood as would have been used in wartime.
Barry.
Save those patterns Barry, We'll need all the help we can get! Great Idea by the way,been in my head too. :P
I don't think I have ever seen any type of aircraft model built in the WWI era. Anyone?
The interesting thing is the interest that was shown around the twenties on WW1 flying,Arch Whitehouse well known aviation writer did a lot of great flying yarns as they called them ! Air Trails did some big solids as well of things like a Breguet biplane and a Spad,then 'Air Stories' came along anothe pulp mag full of stories mostly WW1 orientated and the James Hay Stevens plans,it was a messy war like they all are and the horrors overtook the glamour quickly,last week I went to a very interesting talk on the early days of the RFC,just look at these statistics,in June 1916 between 52 and 106 were killed in action in the air over the Western front,and nearer home 40-106 were killed in training accidents ! before the famous Smith-Barry school was started at Gosport which standardarised training that still stands good today the losses were high,usually a stall at low altitude resulted in a spin to the ground in a machine that had no differential on the draggy ailerons.
The Fokker scourge brought with it more horror and air combat became a very fine art to survive even a few patrols,it is a long time ago but we can re-enact those aircraft in miniature.
I am going to work on a few types to see how they come out,yes there will be plans as well,how about a big black Fokker D7 ? now that would sure look good in anyones collection,no fussy detail just the basic features for identification.
Barry.
Quote from: dave_t on October 31, 2010, 05:48:13 PM
I don't think I have ever seen any type of aircraft model built in the WWI era. Anyone?
Aviation modelling definitely existed before and around WW1, though presumably flying rather than solid types:
• WW1 fighter pilot Cecil Lewis in "Sagittarius Rising" describes building models as part of his "air-mindedness" before joining the RFC.
• A.V.Roe (as later in Avro 504, Lancaster etc) won a prize for his flying model aeroplane before building a real one that "may" have made him the first Briton to fly circa 1908 (the official version being somewhat tied up in who-you-know politics of the era, there are several real possibilities depending on what counts as a "flight").
• Fairey (as later in Swordfish etc) designed a flying model aircraft for Gamages department store before joining Mr Dunne (as later in Burgess-Dunne flying wing biplanes) who was also one of those aiming to be first to fly.
• Sir George Cayley built flying models (and a man-carrying glider) in the mid-Victorian period.
Some very flaky non-evidence of early modelling:
• The marvellous BBC TV 1970's series "Wings" showed plane-mad Alan Farmer as building models before WW1 before joining the RFC – the scripts seem to be an amalgam of many of the reminiscences of WW1 flyers. No recognition models shown, but charts of "Hun" machines often on the wall in the office.
• The recent "Flyboys" film showed solid models on sticks being used to demonstrate combat techniques to the novices. The makers seem to have been very interested in the period though elements and units are all compressed and mixed up. Unfortunately they neglected the script – the flying sequences are exciting (if too many Dr.1s) but the bits inbetween are turgidly dull and/or clichéd.
Hope this is of interest.
Will
The numerous models made for the 'Wings' TV series were made by David Boddington,only last year I sold a Albatross C.1 to a museum in Wales which specialised in TV orientated items,when I rteceived the model it was a wreck having struck a tree on landing in one of the film sequences,I rebuilt the damaged wing and flew it once,kept it for many years before parting with it.
The models on sticks thing was probably copied from the idea as used in WW2 by gunnery instructors,sometimes they would attach recognition models to dowel to demonstrate tactics.
It is true that the building of model aircraft lured many into the air,I love the stories related to A.V.Roe and the railway arch workshop he built his flying machines from and flew them locally.
All great stuff and there can be no doubt that over the years models have played a big part in creating airmindedness leading up to,and in different theatres.
Barry.
Originator of 1:72 scale appears to be Peter Capon in England in 1917. While employed as a youth by a furniture manufacturer contracted to build wings for Avro 504s, he made 6" span solid wood models of Avro 504s and as the span of full size Avro 504 is 36', the models came out to be 1:72 scale. He sold these to his fellow workers. He then built models of other aircraft to the same scale and advertised and sold them as finished models, not kits. In 1919 he made 1:72 solid Vickers Vimys for Sir John Alcock and Sir Arthur Witten Brown. The first 1:72 kits were Skybirds solid wood models introduced in England in 1932.
This history was spelled out in Aeromodeller Aug 1992 issue.
Would that furniture manufacturer happen to be 'Waring & Guillow' they are still around today,what a fascinating story Mark not heard that before ?
Barry.
Basher.
The furniture manufacturer was a firm called Greaves & Thomas.
There's a letter by Peter Capon in the July, 1966 issue of Aeromodeller for more details on his early 1:72 solids.
Mark
Yes I remember the name Capon now ! was oner of the solids a DH.2 ? and I think there was a R.E.8 and a few others,the ones I am thinking about were made from balsa and he made the engines by binding thread around dowel etc just as I still do it,can you scan that article for us ?
Thank you,Barry.
Basher,
Not balsa; see letter from 7/66 Aeromodeller.
Most interesting Mark,what a great story this is about the origins of 1=72nd scale,I like the bit about hiding the parts in his apron ! thank you so much for reproducing this here as it all adds up to the historical side and gives us a wider picture of things.
When I find that article which as in 'Model Aircraft' magazine and not the 'Aeromodeller' by the way I will scan it and show it here,there was a Mr Capon that made rubber driven scale models and had plans published in the 'Aeromodeller' one was a early Spitfire and the other a Heinkel 112,I wonder if this is the same person ?
Barry.
Barry,
I corresponded with Mr. Capon (or Pete as he signed himself) before he passed away. Very interesting gentleman of the "old school". He went on to be a junior draughtsman at de Havilland and kept his own full size Sopwith Pup at Stag Lane which he bought cheaply and with which he was going to teach himself to fly. He later worked at Hawker under the great Sydney Camm and of whom he was somewhat terrified. He claimed to me to be the draughtsman of the Hurricane's tailplane. He was an avid photographer and many of his photos appear in the Putnam series of aviation books.
He did buld lots of flying models and had his own model company....Kapon Kraft or something like that. He designed a beautiful Wakefield model called the Krusader which was published in Model Aircraft after WW2, by which time it was obsolete. I didn't know he made flying scale models.
Cheers,
Mark
He really does sound an interesting old boy from times past when people had higher standards than today,the Pup should be traceable if it was civil registered as many in fact were,my father also built Wakefields and I still have a drawing of one that he built the fusealge for,that was a beautiful design as well,obsolete or not I would still build that Wakefield Mark,the older designs have more character to them including the shapely aeroplanes we build as solids.
I will always remember that name now you have mentioned it and we may find out more,thank you for your interest.
Barry.
His Pup was G-EBAZ.
Mark
Outside of the obvious use for the models for identification training, there was another use, which was considered by the government to be of equal importance, and that was making sure that the public felt they were involved with and contributing to the war effort.
Unlike Britain, the U.S. was not in a war zone, and their wasn't the day to day reminders of the war. The U.S. government developed programs which brought home the war, and an attempt was made to make sure the public felt they were part of it. Such things as "Victory Gardens," scrap drives, plane spotters, Civil Defense, and rationing was part of those programs. Quite a bit was not necessary in the U.S., but it was done to make people feel they were part of the war.
So was the involvement in youth programs such as Scouts, Civil Air Patrol Cadets, and others. The building of I.D. models was part of that. Yes, the need for models might have existed, but even after the need had diminished the models were still being built.
Years ago in the back of a thrift shop I came across a large manila envelope with some I.D. model plans in it. But what was as much of interest to me was it was filled with forms, certificates, and letters for the running of the program at a Midwestern high school. It obviously had belonged to a shop teacher or Principal of a school, as this was the documents sent over the course of the war, to him from the government. A lot of the paper had to do with keeping up the interest among students, and to make sure the students felt they were contributing to the war effort. There were things such as assigned quotas, which kept up the sense of urgency.
As far as I.D. model use during either World War 1, or World War 2, the difference was the much larger size of the combat arms and the need to quickly train people to fly and fight, not to mention the Navy, anti-aircraft personnel and the civilian aircraft spotters. Specific training techniques and aids were developed by experts in the field of learning, which didn't exist during WW1. So I would say that it is possible there were some locally made spotting models during WW1, but it was not a government program.
Very interesting dialogue Lotus,I agree there must have been those who were model builders and felt the need for some type of ID platform,this is where we can re-create a bit of history ourselves by placing ourselves in the position of recognition instructors and designing simple biplane models that fulfill these requirements ( see my recent BE2C and Fokker D7 and currently the RE8 ) Fascinating social history in that envelope and worthy of a museum in fact,it would be interesting to know the actual quotas ? and was there a requirement to do as many twins as single engines etc ? or more complex flying boats as well,a tough task for youngsters who probably struggled with simple woodworking joints even.
We can still proudly look back on these programs and even today re-enact a complete collection of those ID models from the plans we have,no mean feat for anyone !
Barry.
Probably not of 1917-'18 vintage, these models are currently for sale on ebay. Thought you would like to see them Barry. The Albatros D.III is 7" span. The AGO C.IV is 10" span.
Very interesting Mark,they look like 1930's vintage but I have no idea their origin ? possible solid kits or from plans perhaps.
Any chance of the link to these please Mark ?
Barry.
That should be AEG C.IV as the type of aircraft.
Barry.
Looking for those two I found these two delightful solids,the aeroplane looks like a Percival Gull.
Barry.
(http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/normal_4fc11789.jpg)
Quote from: Balsabasher on March 16, 2011, 01:41:50 PM
That should be AEG C.IV as the type of aircraft.
Barry.
I respectfully disagree.
http://www.aviastar.org/air/germany/ago_c-4.php
http://acepilots.com/airplanes/country/german/ago-civ/
You are right Mark,never heard of AGO ? at first I thought it was a misprint,interesting,thank you for the correction.
Barry.
Quote from: Balsabasher on March 16, 2011, 01:41:50 PM
That should be AEG C.IV as the type of aircraft.
Barry.
Barry,
You won't be the first to be caught out by the WW1 German Army Air Force's type designation. In theory AGO C.IV means the 4th C-type aircraft from the AGO concern, AEG C.IV would be the 4th C-type aircraft from AEG.
Not all designations got as far as production and combat, hence Pfalz fighters went from D.III to D.XII, the numbers in between generally being unsuccessful prototypes or at least not the choice adopted by the military.
The designations letters were no doubt clear back in 1915 but have become confused since. There's a good set-out of what the letters were probably supposed to mean and some of the confusing elements here http://www.wwi-models.org/misc/desig.html (http://www.wwi-models.org/misc/desig.html)
Will
Will most interesting historical material,WW1 aircraft are a specialised and absorbing subject in themselves,it was always my aim to get a representative collection of models to cover this important period in history,not always the well known ones but subjects like this AGO C.IV with its most unusual wing planform,I have the Janes Aircraft reproduction volume for 1914-18 types in production throughout the world,it also includes the unique old engines as well with those massive propellers to pull them through the air.
Thank you for your interest and sharing of knowledge it is much appreciated,it is true we learn something new every day !
Barry.
If you read the above thread, I made mention some time ago about Pete Capon and his role in introducing 1/72 scale. His first models were 6" span Avro 504s which he sold to fellow employees at the London furniture factory where he was employed making wings for full size 504s ca 1917. Span of the full size airplane is 36' so the 6" model worked out to 1/72 scale. I recently saw this 1/72 Avro 504K for sale on the internet and while I have no reason to believe this is one of Peter's original models, I thought I would include it here.
Note: Most on-line histories credit A.J.Holladay & Co. Ltd with originating 1/72 scale with their Skybirds kits starting in 1932. Skybirds were the first 1/72 kits but the Capon models, sold fully assembled starting in 1917 and continuing into the early '20s, are the first known models in that scale.
Mark
Very interesting Mark,that looks a delightful little model as well.
Barry.
Thank you for posting.
Lou
When I posted my reply on the making of WW2 I.D. models, I forgot to mention a couple of things. The program was primarily controlled by school instructors and administrators. The manufacturing of the models, was in many cases a joint effort, so those techniques that could be done by the wood shop tools were done on almost a production basis with close supervision by the instructors. Although some students built models as a hobby, the I.D. models were looked upon as vital war effort projects. One of my uncles was a student during the war, and I have a P-40 he made. The models were closely inspected, and if there was any variation from the inspection requirements the model was rejected.
I also found that the 1/72 scale was chosen as the models, in training, were to be observed at a specific distance, which gave the impression of viewing the full size airplane at a distance such as a mile, or some such. I don't remember what the distance was, as my information is in storage. If I get to my storage space one day, I'll try and remember to dig it out.
Also for those who plan a trip the the U.S. Air Force Museum in Dayton, make an appointment to visit the library, as there is quite a lot of material on this subject. You need to make an appointment ahead of time. I spent a day at the library, and it was well worth it.
In Derek Head's book, Bassett-Lowke Waterline Ship Models, he states that Bassett-Lowke started making miniature waterline ship models starting in 1908, and their lines of ship models were used by Allied Armed services in both wars.
The book also mentions that the Bassett-Lowke was instructed not to sell any Royal Navy ship models to the public, and those models were not included in their 1914 - 1918 catalogs. ( Apparently to prevent other countries from using the products for their training purposes. )
It goes on to state that there were wood and wire waterline models in 1/1200 scale, and white metal waterline models in 1/1800 scale. I didn't see where it was stated that the services used one, or the other, or both for identification models.
I've been able to snag a couple of wooden Bassett-Lowke miniature ships from the WW II era, and they are quite impressive in their craftsmanship.
Lynn please post photos of the models.
Lou
Please see photos of the USS Pennsylvania and the USS Northampton.
The Northampton has damage to all of its masts. ( A couple are missing pieces. )
These were purchased on an auction site a couple of years ago, and had not been out of the box until today. The Pennsylvania shows to be a 1"=125' scale, which is one that I had never heard of for Bassett-Lowke. It may be that I was snookered when I bought these, and they are not in fact genuine Bassett-Lowke products.
However, they are consistent with the photos of similar ships in the Derek Head book, so hopefully they will give you some idea of how these identification models appeared.
If you have an interest in such models, I heartily endorse Captain Head's book.
Valuable treasure. Thank you for posting Lynn.
Lou