Would you guys like a ---group build---making a model just from Photos???..I´ll give a few tips on how to do it and then we all jump in with our photos and see what we come out with.I think something like this would wind me up again.... ;D ;D
Gera I have done this myself a few times by getting a known size ie wheel and scaling from that alone,the results as you know can be very worthwhile and satisfying,it teaches us about shape and not relying totally on a drawing,sometime this is more accurate than a plan.
I will go for it ! it should be a lot of fun as well.
Barry.
This might be interesting. What I am working on now is complicated and frustrating. I could use a break.
Ken Pugh
Quote from: Balsabasher on May 09, 2012, 10:14:21 PM
Gera I have done this myself a few times by getting a known size ie wheel and scaling from that alone,the results as you know can be very worthwhile and satisfying,it teaches us about shape and not relying totally on a drawing,sometime this is more accurate than a plan.
I will go for it ! it should be a lot of fun as well.
Barry.
Hi Barry, that´s it!!!...the trick is getting the known size of an object(S) near by the plane in the photo and scale from that. I have found that using "people" in the photo is a very good start, gas drums, houses, and like you say, parts of the airplane itself......I see Ken also is interested. Let´s see if we get a few more volunteers and then we can jump in the fray.....I think the the fever is back!!!! Hurra!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Gera, I think it's a very good idea. Perhaps it may be quite a while before I can partake but I have been thinking of asking if any of our members could offer advice on how to go about making plans from photos - 3views from photographs taken by the modeller. Do we use french curves, dimensional graph paper or, heaven forbid for a shaky old whatever, freehand. What I had in mind was to enlarge 3views of a DH82A that I have so that I have a more detailed useable drawings of a DH82C (Tiger Moth) the latter taken from Photos taken earlier.
Cliff.
I'm am willing to give it a try. Of course mine will look more like a plane crash.
Peter
Peter if it did then it would certaimly be different ! the good thing about this is anything goes,its what we make of the shapes before us,yes French curves are brilliant for drawing and even those curvy snake things that are as as cheap as chips,the way I do it is as Gera mentions go for a known dimension,then with a pair of dividers simply track across the picture,you can make a datum first from say spinner to sternpost and some vertical lines at different stations,but everything is loosly done,it is the overall effect that matters,I suggest a soft pencil as they flow better,then you can always ink in the shape but it is not necessary,its real fun and many a time when a drawing was not available this system has been used,my flying wing from 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' was done this way from film company stills to work from.
A simple but fun approach that certainly teaches observation skills.
The one that I will go for is the Hanley Page S.24 which was designed for the U.S.Navy,there are no plans as far as I know and ony one photograph but it is a cracking design,who cares the challenge is to make a model utilising Geras technique,may not even bother with a plan and just ink directly onto the wood constantly looking back and forward that picture,this is about observation.
Have you ever wondered how those old magazine type plans were made ? well exactly by this method,the draughtsmen would probably work to the span and any dimesions and what pictures were available of the latest ship for Uncle Sam,then draught out the shape freehand adjusting as they went along,then a tracer would ink in the drawing ready for publication,Thetford and his team made the drawings for 'Aircraft of the Fighting Powers' in this way,there is a picture somewhere of him chuffing away at his pipe whilst drawing ! its certainly not rocket science and many an idle moment in tech drawing at school was spent designing aeroplane drawings to make solids,the teacher got used to me knowing that I was not really interested in yet another third angle projection !
Barry.
With more than enough participants I will move this thread to the cook-up section and rename it From Photo Only. I have a USAF Recognition Journal from 1955 that should provide me with inspiration.
Lou
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41jLSalNcsL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Thanks for the advice. I just bought a French Curve and a bendy ruler yesterday so it's meant to be. Now to pick a subject....
Peter
I was thinking of doing something crazy, like maybe a scifi spacecraft. Then I remembered the spy drone shot down in Iran (RQ-170?). That is my project.
Ken Pugh
Go for it Ken,sounds ideal.
Lou I have never seen a USAF Recognition book before ?
Peter get that bendy rule flexing,it will be interesting to see what you come up with ?
Well done everyone I am sure Gera is proud of you and what a great cook up this wil make.
Barry.
Barry, I was the most lucky recipient of this journal in the late 1950s by a suitor of my sister. He was obviously trying to get on her good side through me and it work, at least for me. I see that Amazon is selling some but did not find out how much.
Lou
One can always change their minds. In my case it is sometimes hard to even find it. I downloaded a few pictures of the CU-170 Heron UAV and always pictured it to be a large aircraft, however following Gera's advise, I found a few pics with people in them. The wing is probably just over a meter of the ground which give me a good idea on measurements. I feel all fired up also.
Lou
Details at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Heron
I will hop on the UAV band wagon and try a Predator. It has reasonably simple lines.
Peter
Maybe we can have a mock dog fight at the end.
Lou
Only if we can make cool sound effects too ;D
Peter
I'm not too sure exactly how this cook-up is supposed to work. But I hope that my intentions qualify. I'm planning to draw three views of a Tiger Moth - the DH82C version - from both pictures that I've taken from one side of a Moth that is currently part of the WCAM's collection and smaller 3views of the DH82A that I've already got. The DH82A views will provide a top view after some deletions have been made - primarily the wing slats and a tail watchamaycallit on top of the fuselage at the rear. And I need some more photos showing the other side of the museum's Moth so that I can show the airspeed indicator on the wing that was an integral part of most Tigers. This last detail will determine the scale. At the present, I believe that as much as I would like to model the aircraft in 1/72nd this scale would be too small.
Currently, I propose to proceed by stitching together photos of the one side; tracing the result; xeroxing this onto a copy of the 3views of the DH82A and from there . . . .
I actually thought that a computer might be able to help but I'm not sure exactly how.
To this stage - that is a workable 3view - I believe all is expected to fulfill the requirements of this particular cook-up. Perhaps I've got it wrong.
Cliff.
Well this is my approach,take one photograph of the Handley Page Type S24,in fact this is the only photograph ever taken of the Type S.24 ! place sheet of drawing paper onto board and study the picture,using the standard wheel divide out that onto fuselage dimensions,keep cross checking different areas and note angles with a protractor,keep working up the drawing,utilise known full size dimensions ie wingspan and fuselage length,scale accordingly,keep looking from a distance and constantly refer to your photograph/s,end result sufficent information to build a solid model,the drawing stage to me was real fun and such a challenge,if you like sketch in the details roughly and place sheet of tracing paper over the top of drawing and tidy everything up,another good tip is to look at the drawing in a mirror,surprising what this shows up dont worry we are not after perfection this is a really skillful thing to achieve and not everyone is a draughtsman,as long as you can put pencil to paper it works and geat fun,give it a go !
Barry.
(http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/HP24_PICTURE.JPG)
http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/HP24_PICTURE.JPG
(http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/DRAWING_PLANS_HP24.JPG)
http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/HP24_DRAWING_UP.JPG
http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/DRAWING_PLANS_HP24.JPG
(http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/HP24_DRAWING_UP.JPG)
Barry, is this the same bird? HPS-1 is USN designation...Handley Page Scout. Wing looks quite different in this view. Tyre/wheel looks like standard 100mm x 700mm, same as SE5a.
Where did you find that Mark ?! excellent and it answers the final wing arrangement that I was looking for,this picture will be invalueable in the construction and that the first time the U.S.Navy designation has been mentioned.
Incidently thats a BR2 Rotary up front so I bet it was a bit down on performance,the rear fuselage swung to allow carrier stowage,thank you for locating this on my behalf,I had better re-draw the definitive wing shape now it is known.
Barry.
Cliff,
Don't forget there's the DH82C 1:72 GA from Aircraft of the Fighting Powers I uploaded.
Its not from volume 1 so might be accurate ;).
http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pid=5801#top_display_media (http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pid=5801#top_display_media)
Will
Barry,
Your photo and a brief mention of the USN HPS-1 also appears in the Harleyford US Navy Fighters history. No drawing though.
I thought you might have a full set of the Harleyford books - the ones I've bought or borrowed from the library are great.
Will
I will take a look,I think that book is in my Harleyford collection ? I buy them second hand from the local book shop.
Barry.
Barry,
The photo at reply #18 is from United States Navy Aircraft since 1911 by Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers. That would be a Putnam book on your side of the pond....over here it's published by Naval Institute Press.
This appears to be the second prototype with 6° of dihedral. See link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Type_S
B.R.2 is the same engine that was in the Snipe....can't have been too underpowered. Better than that A.B.C. Dragonfly that was fouling other aircraft programs at the time.
Mark
Will, for some reason or other I just get: "the file does not exist." While it may be my fault could you check it to see what the problem is. Thanks for trying in the meantime.
Cliff
Cliff,
The link in my earlier post works for me. Otherwise you can put DH82C in the "Search" on the SMM gallery and it comes up too.
Cheers
Will
Cliif it comes up fine this end,a pity that there is no photo reference but the information is interesting,thank Mark for locating it on my behalf.
Barry.
Thanks again Will. I followed your suggestion and when I "searched" for a DH82C miracles of miracles I got the 3-views. But I believe that I've got those already and while not trying to be ungrateful I think they are lacking in the degree of detail that I was hoping for. Which reminds me, will someone please tell me if I proceed as planned and outlined in a previous posting is that enough or in other words is the expectation of a workable plan sufficient to be part of the cook-up? I'm not too sure that I fully understand what's required. (I know that I'm slowing down and not speeding up with age but this really is a different kind of cook-up.)
Cliff.
Barry, I still think you have performed a miracle going from the photo to your drawing, but you have some very good pointers to your method. I have a photo that has lines drawn all over it from my poor attempt at something similar a while back. It may be time to dust that photo off!
Garet
What we should remember is that every drawing starts as 1/ A few photographs 2/ Known dimensions,the problem is as we know the more obscure the subject the more ground work is needed from that invalueable only picture available,yes the lines drawn over a picture is a good method as well,it is difficult however as always to get a perfect side view as camera distortion can play some tricks so its all a compromise.
This really has been an eye opening cookup already for many of us but above all it teaches eye/hand/drawing/observation skills that we can all utilise and expand on,I think whatever method is used then as long as the final result looks interesting then thats fine to me at least,I think it is true to say that many solid plans were drawn up by eye by unskilled draughtsmen even those in some kits but there is charm in those plans,building the 'Hobbies' range from those green printed drawings has revealed many errors in interpretation,I had to redraw the Blackbrn Botha as the wing was not even in the right cnfiguration,that was something I could not live with ! probably drawn by someone who did not know his aeroplanes ? which brings up another interesting point,this is all about that important feel for a subject,the more close to your heart then the more likely it is to succeed.
To Cliff I would say select as many good pictures as you can of the Tiger Moth and attempt your own individual drawing of it,you may be surprised to see it turn out better than anything available,and above all it will have been fun along the way,best of luck with this everyone the end results should be very interesting.
Barry.
Happy to know I stirred some feathers with this!!! :D :D :D....I´ll use this weekend to search the web for some photos that get me all steamed up....I can remember some very strange planes I have always wanted to make. Don´t get too much involved in making a plan full of details etc...just a good outline for the main parts, fuselage, wings and tail feathers then use your "eyes" and chop away....you will not be making a "perfect scale". I call these models " representative models", for they give a representation of the original so the seer can appreciate the shape, color etc..of the real airplane. I bet you have seen a lot of these in museums, they look great but are not "absolute scale models"....So glad to be back with you guys.... ;). Hey Ken, send that spy plane up north and check on your friend!!! :o :o :o :o
Take a look at "museum quality Representative Models" as I call them.....
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68191
Thanks to Barry and Gera for enlightening me as to what is expected in this cook up and how to go about it.
Cliff.
And Gera that is a really great site you have posted. I'll get back to it for a greater perusal.
Dear Gera,you are right there lots of 'Representative' models in collections,even major museums as well,I was trying to think of the name you would apply to these and you have got it in one,I think the summing up of all this is to draught up/design build something with instant appeal to personal tastes and then the fun is all in the package,even for example a Dan Dare space rocket would look really good with this criteria,build loose get effect ! Your idea for a different type of Cookup was a good one,and dont foget these cook ups are ongoing,they never end so you can lay them up and come back to them as you wish showing what you have done along he way.
Barry.
After preparing the templates a start was made today on my contribution to the latest cook up,the revised wing was drawn thanks to additional photo evidence provided by the kind members here,for ease of construction I opted for balsa on this one as I want to try out some new filling techniques that have been on my mind,the construction is straightforward and the aeroplane seems to change into all sorts of designs as you build it,with the sun beaming down and the second batch of Swallows arriving with some actually entering the hangar ! a friendly Robin hopped around the balsa shavings on the floor inside within a foot away of me sitting at the workbench,how wonderful it seems that even Robin's appreciate solid models ?
The cockpit was first drilled out then opened up with a Dremel router,note the way that the wing hangs clear of the fuselage requiring some careful fillet work in that area,always something different and a challenge on different types of aircraft.
I have decided to make this as the projected floatplane version,who knows they may have even mocked that version up ? at the time the U.S.Navy were searching the world for suitable designs and Handley Page came up with this from their drawing office,its a kind of mix from the old and the new,the fuselage ( which incidently hinged aft of the cockpit for easy stowage onboard carriers ) is quite modern looking,however the balanced rudder design looks old hat,plus the undercarriage looks quite birdcage like and probably an overkill for rugged carrier operations.
The wing is held on brass tubes a method that I like to use as it allows a bit of float as you adjust the incidence and dihedral angle,once set you just zap it with cyno and it locks everything into place ready for the fillet work which will be built around the wing to fuselage joint.
Barry.
http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/20120521_19.JPG
(http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/20120521_19.JPG)
http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/20120521_26.JPG
(http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/20120521_26.JPG)
http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/20120521_27.JPG
(http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/20120521_27.JPG)
http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/20120521_29.JPG
(http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/20120521_29.JPG)
http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/20120521_28.JPG
(http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/20120521_28.JPG)
Outstanding! Chips are flying!
Ken Pugh
The floats have been made up and derived from a Edo float ( photograph naturally !) the necessary chine etc was cut and filed into place,these were pre drilled in the block state before carving and bridged with a brass tube joiner,next job is to make up the support struts for attaching to the fuselage undersides,a simple sacrificial jig will be made for this operation.
The large wng fillet took some time to get right,I started by making balsa plugs to bridge the gap between the wing to fusealge joint,then I rammed sawdust into the gaps filling them tightly,next it was outside to flood the sawdust with thin cyno,a puff of cyanide smoke and the whole lot was rock solid,dont do this inside because the fumes from the cyno will gas you,once this has set I worked some Squadron green putty following the shape of the fillet,a good dry out in the sun and it was ready for sanding that area,I used medium grit paper wrapped around a piece of dowel,a sand up and a coat of sanding sealer reay for the primer appications.
The seaplane version was projected and a requirement for the U.S.Navy,I think it looks better on floats than its large landplane undercarriage thats why I chose this particular feature.
At the moment for the photographs it was sitting on a block of wood to get an impression of what it will look like with them fitted.
http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/20120522_3.JPG
(http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/20120522_3.JPG)
http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/20120522_1.JPG
(http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10005/20120522_1.JPG)
Excellent work as usual Barry, I've not heard of doing that to harden off the cyno joints before. Regards Paul J.
It fills and seals structually in one operation Paul,virtually impossible to sand once fully set so make it so that it is below the actual filling level,then build up with softer conventional filler such as Squadron green etc,then final sand to leave a good finish.
On awkward joints like this it excells,but watch those fumes and just walk away from it outside and let it smoke as it triggers the dust particles.
Barry.
Hi guys....This weekend I will make a choise between these two candidates:
The Caproni 134 flew for the first time on 23 Jan 1937 and only two prototypes were built.
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/scratchbuilt/CAPRONI-%20134/t_ca134-3_629.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/scratchbuilt/CAPRONI-%20134/t_ca134-1_112.jpg)
Caproni 102....This was to be a follow up to the 101 which saw a lot of action in the Ethiopian Campaign of 1934-1936. It never did. Just one prototype was built and several different engines were tested in it.Even a push/pull contraption with radial engines and a set of online water cooled ones...
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/scratchbuilt/CAPRONI%20102/ca102-1.jpg)
But...............this Leoning is begging to be done too......
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/scratchbuilt/LEONING/panam1.jpg)
I love these subjects Gera,could be tempted myself !
Barry.
Quote from: gera on May 25, 2012, 08:10:45 PM
Hi guys....This weekend I will make a choise between these two candidates:
But...............this Leoning is begging to be done too......
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/scratchbuilt/LEONING/panam1.jpg)
Gera, there are 3-view drawings of the Loening amphibians in a book I got a couple of years ago ("American Flying Boats and Amphibious Aircraft: An Illustrated History" by E.R.Johnson). None match the Pan-American tour OA-1A though. There are plenty of photos on the internet as the "San Francisco", one of them is in the Smithsonian or one of its satellite museums. Thanks for bringing the plane to our attention, the OA-1A is almost so ugly its beautiful - I'm tempted to carve one too. I guess if I used a plan it could still fit into the "long-distance cook-up".
Regards
Will
Hi Will....
Roger on the book, will look it up. This plane is the perfect " patience tester" with the odd shape fuselage and so many wires plus the "spoke wheels" which make modelers tremble ;D ;D...a jewel for a 1/48 or 1/32 scale.....
How you guys doing????...some pics coming up on saturday :o :o....Show how you doing!!!!! 8)
I enjoyed this cook up so much that maybe another subject will be chosen,it was real fun so thanks for the inspirational ideas Gera.
Barry.
Are you finished Barry???....I am just starting and maybe within two months I´ll finish!!!!!
Yes the Handley Page S24 is in the completed models album Gera,but fear not as remember all of the cook-ups are ongoing and never end.
Barry.
Hi Gentlemen: I'm in on this Group Build. But I think that I should try to present my "plan of attack" first.
My approach will be as follows:
- to get a number of digital photos of the right side of a DH82C that is currently on display at the Western Canada Aviation Museum. This step has been completed and the shots will be offered shortly.
- To get a number of detailed photos of the left side of this aircraft; especially emphasizing the "wing air speed indicator" - completed;
- to fit the photos of the right side together - completed;
- to xerox these photos in order to try to remove as much of the background as possible (currently the photos contain a lot of the existing aircraft that surround the Moth at the museum).
- to incorporate this side view with that available from other sources of a DH82A;
- to incorporate the available top view of a DH82A to arrive at a top view of a DH82C;
- lastly, and possibly the most difficult part, to select a scale for the model aircraft - one that will not render the model too large but still have the ability to display such details as the wing carried air speed indicator;
- To build the model.
Cliff
Moving along slowly. I have nearly completed the CU-170 undercarriage with just some fine sanding to be done, sealing and painting.
Lou
Neato! on the wheels, Lou. I have in the past also used holes in scrap wood to hold small finished parts while gluing or even sometimes painting.Probably many members have also used this method but it's nice to see that it's still helpful.
Cliff.
That is actually an old piece of balsa that has been hanging around my work bench for at least a year. I looked but could not find a drawing of the CU-170 version of the IAI Heron I UAV. So everything is being done as per the group build criteria.
Lou
The CU-170 Heron rolled out this morning to bright sunshine and light winds. A perfect day. The marking placement is guess work as no pictures can be found of the Heron photographed from the correct angles so I used the old grey matter between my ears. The project was fun. An attempt was made to make a 1/72 scale CU-170 to keep the size down. Although it is a small craft the wing span is long. A dime is posed for reference.
Lou
Two additional photos.
Lou
It looks great Lou! Does the Canadian Military use the Heron?
Peter
I like that Lou, is the Heron a Canadian design, or designed elsewhere and bought in?. So many countries and companies are building U.A.V's these days. Regards Paul J.
The Heron is built by Israel Aerospace Industries and five were leased for use by our troops. Here is the link to CU-170 data and a few photos.
http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/v2/equip/hst/cu170/index-eng.asp
Lou
Thanks for the link Lou, some nice Hawk pics on there too, the Heron is quite a size when you see someone stood next to it for reference.Regards Paul J.
Well done, Lou.
This may be the first of many drones to slowly populate our build log.
Ken Pugh
Actually, this is the second UAV presented on the site. Gordon's Shadow was the first.
(http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/Gallery/albums/userpics/10144/Shadow_2.JPG)
I will start a new cook-up to include the two we have and to inspire others to submit theirs. http://smm.solidmodelmemories.net/SMF/index.php?topic=995.0
Lou